In the beginning, when she goes to Eddard in the weirwoods at Winterfell (I believe they were somewhere near the Heart Tree at that) and she talks to him for a while, I thought that she seemed like a caring mother and wife, all in all a good character in the making and a generally good human being.
As the story progresses, though, and you learn about Jon being a bastard child and you see more of Catelyn around Jon himself and just the concept of him, she just sort of loses my respect because she's so unnecessarily cruel to Jon and was so confrontational about his existence with Ned. The scene when Jon is about to leave to go with his uncle Benjen to the Wall, and he stops to say goodbye to a sort-of comatose Bran, Catelyn just tells him to leave and is positively vicious and stubborn on the whole topic of his presence there. What's especially offensive about this part is when Catelyn tells Jon to leave (for sort-of the third time, notably.) and immediately follows it up with, "We don't want you here." That was so wholly unnecessary and cruel to Jon, that she spoke for his unconscious half-brother (who had always treated him like a full-blooded brother, to my knowledge) and said something of that nature.
It's understandable that Catelyn is hurt by Jon's existence, as he was born a bastard while she was married to Eddard and he was away at war or something of the like, but she has no reason to be angry at him. He didn't ask to be born a bastard; if anyone deserves her malice over such a thing, shouldn't it be Eddard instead? Eddard was the one who couldn't keep it in his pants while he was away, and that's not Jon's fault, he just happens to be the result of it.
The whole issue of Catelyn wanting Jon sent away is a bit strange, from my point of view, though I can understand the logic behind it, it's sort of an archaic way of dealing with something like that... I don't know. My take on this is that she should take Ned's insistence that Jon live with them at Winterfell as some sort of reassurance that he honestly loves his children (...of which he happens to have four by her, I believe), and while she doesn't necessarily have to love Jon as her own or anything of the like, or even at all, I think she should at least treat him like a fellow human being.
But that's just my take on the whole thing... what's yours?
I'm not going to excuse Catelyn's behavior, but she expected her husband to be unfaithful while he was away at war (As does Cersei with Robert currently). She doesn't like Jon because he's supposedly a reminder of Eddard's unfaithfulness. She expresses repeatedly that Eddard could have provided for the boy without bringing him up with the rest of the Starks. (I don't quite believe that Jon is Eddard's kid. Not with the regard in which he holds him despite his title as bastard.)
ReplyDeleteBut you have to take into account that Robert and Cersei have a rocky relationship whereas Catelyn and Ned seem to love each oyher genuinely. I don't think she expected him to be unfaithful per say, however Robert is notorious for his drinking and partying habits. I think she was just so surprised by his actions she takes it out on Jon.
DeleteEddard COULD have done that, and while his unfaithfulness wasn't really frowned upon in and of itself, I don't thhink Jon should have been treated so badly by his only maternal figure. I also think something bad must have happened between Eddard and Jon's mother (her name escapes me currently, but the way that Eddard behaves when Catelyn asks him about Jon's parentage he's furious and silent). I personally look at from (what I believe to be a sort of) modern view, and see it like Eddard having a child from a previous marriage. Jon has no connection to Catelyn, and she is not expected to love him, and he is not expected to love her, but I think she ought to treat him with a bit of respect, she's just been positively vile to him in everything I've read.
ReplyDeleteEddard's refusal to tell Catelyn who Jon's mother is, is exactly the reason why I think that Jon isn't Eddard's kid. I think he's Eddard's adopted son from someone else, but I don't think that Eddard fathered him. I don't know why.
ReplyDelete...I never even thought of that but that's pretty genius, I don't think it's necessarily the case, though. There's some pretty heavy implications that Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne, and he explicitly states that Jon is his son.
ReplyDeleteAnd while I dislike Catelyn as a person, I sort of trust her intuition as a woman when she thinks that Eddard "must have loved [Jon's mother] fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away." (page 55 for me, probably somewhere around 59-61 for you). I personally disagree with your theory, even though it could make logical sense, and Eddard is fully capable of lying to Catelyn about that issue, I just... don't think that he is. Plus it's stated that Jon looks an awful lot like Eddard, moreso than his "trueborn" sons with Catelyn.
I think that there's a possibility that Eddard could not be the father to jon, but it does mention quite a few times how looks more like him than any of his other children. I believe he's protecting Jon's true mother's identity because he still loves her in a way. I guess we'll have to keep reading g to find out though!
ReplyDeleteNo, there's pretty heavy implication that Catelyn think's that Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne.
ReplyDeleteAnd, Eddard had a sister didn't he, one that died in the war after being kidnapped.
Don't you think that Jon could be her kid from the person who kidnapped her?
Ive never thought of that but I like the idea! I just wonder why Eddard doesnt tell anyone that Jon is his sisters child. There must be an important reason for Eddard to risk his relationship with Catelyn.
ReplyDeleteIt may or may not be true, but that's what I think
ReplyDeleteTrue on the thing about what Catelyn thinks, sorry I misworded that. Eddard did have a sister, but I don't think she was ever mentioned to have children, and.. it's a little hard to miss a huge pregnant belly, which Lyanna would have had if she was Jon's mother. And who would have fathered Jon if Lyanna was his mother? Robert? I'm not sure... the argument you make about familial resemblance is interesting and definitely valid, but why would Eddard let his nephew (assuming Lyanna and not-Eddard to be Jon's parents) suffer the kind of treatment Catelyn gives him and bear the heavy term of 'bastard' in those days if he doesn't have to?
ReplyDeleteIf Jon is Lyanna's child by the man who kidnapped her, he would probably look an awful lot less like Eddard than he does (I'm assuming) since the man who kidnapped Lyanna was a Targaryen, and with my so-far limited knowledge of the Targaryens, they're all blond and pale and with very distinct features... and they don't really "mate" outside of their family because they want to keep the dragon's blood pure or something like that, Daenerys the only exception because Viserys needs Drogo's army.
One other thing though, Catelyn thinks Jon's mother is Ashara Dayne because she overheard it from maids and other like people, but once she asked Eddard about it, all of the conversations she overheard stopped. Why would Eddard be so outraged by the simple mention of something? If it was wrong, he could have easily corrected her and told her the truth, but I think it's pretty apparent that he's trying to hide something about that, perhaps he still loves Ashara or something? I don't know, but I don't think that Eddard would so fiercely deny something like that and silence even the concept of it unless he was trying to hide his feelings about it...
I'm kinda glad this post sparked a little debate though, I feel accomplished.
Well, the Targayens have pretty recessive traitsplatinum blonde hair, bright blue eyes are about as recessive as you can get. Stark genes would overpower them. Maintaining the genes was probably part of the reason for the incest. And it is mentioned that her captor raped her.
ReplyDeleteFurthermore, as Ned is remembering Stark, he suddenly recalls Lyanna begging him to promise her something. Take care of Jon, perhaps?
I can understand not wanting to reveal Jon's parentage. He is an on-continent threat to the throne, and would be a ripe target for assassination and debate over keeping him alive. Passing him off as Ned's bastard is probably much easier and safer. No one really cares or gives much thought to bastards.
As to Catelyn, she is very family-oriented. It seems like a reasonable fault to have. If any of you can say you've never hated a person undeservedly, then congratulations, I wish there were more people like you.